Court of Owls 1st Full - Is there a Debate?

Comics DC Comics
#1

Last week the court of owls Batman comics got some heat, in particular issues 4 & 6. They appeared on some top 10/20 lists, two of which had the captions below trying to explain why.

From Covrprice runners up this week:

“The debate lies in whether #4 or #6 is the first appearance. Since CGC hasn’t noted one over the other, this debate is a hot one right one. Read both issues and see what you think.”

From CBSI “HOT 10 List” last week:

“…issue #3 is the cameo and #4 is the 1st [full]. #6 has the better cover and is being hailed as the 1st by some, but if you actually read the story, there is no question that the 1st full appearance is #4.”

found both at my LCS and decided to see for myself what the fuss was about between the two. I don’t have issues 1-3 and 5…so if anyone knows anything that could contribute to the debate, please let me know. I’m going to keep an eye out for cheap copies.

Anyways, here are the cliff notes. Issue 3 Seems to be nearly entirely about Batman giving background on the mysterious Court of Owls and how he, as a child, suspected them of being behind a conspiracy to murder his parents. So after their deaths, he does some investigation and comes up short of any evidence. So the name “Court of Owls” is mentioned through the book, but no actual Visuals of what or who they are until the very end when he’s in the sewers chasing down a lead:

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So that’s it. The previous page has Talon, but I don’t think that’s considered a “court” appearance. And it’s somewhat of a vision or flashback…I can’t tell. See here:

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So I see the cameo argument and definitely an appearance, but I don’t see any “Full” argument with this issue.

On to issue 6. Clearly a full appearance of nearly the entire court. Multiple pages and dialogue.

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Don’t have issue 3, but That is said to be a cameo as well. Would like to see the interior.

But if I was a “First Full” kind of guy, well it’s 6 seems to be the one I want. And just to add coolness to it, the cover of 6 beats out 4, although I do like them both.

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Any thoughts? Is it even debatable issue 4 has a full appearance?

#2

#6 has always been a 1st full appearance. Anyone debunking that hasnt read the comics.

#3

If I remember I just bought #2-10 and called it a day if you collected CW and Gotham spec you already have court of owls covered. I’ve got the regular and combo pack for #6 the combo pack cover looks that much better

#4

I thought the combo pack Variant just said “Combo Pack!” On the cover.

2nd print is one of those recolored (red background) variants. It’s pretty cool too.

I had a NM newsstand of issue 1 and sold it for $100 raw a few years ago…not bad for a $2.99
Investment.

#5

Just checked and yes combo variant very cool background. Too bad it says “Combo Pack!”

#6

#4 is first full app.

#7

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It pops a little more with the coloring and less copies exist.

#8

I disagree with both of you Batman vol2 #2 is first Court of Owls they are mentioned by name fully described first then the court of owls assassin Talon shows up in full I would consider him part of the court.

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#9

If this is the only panel, literally don’t see
Any court of owls there so IF that’s the only panel no way in hell thats a full appearance. Naming or talking about someone isn’t an appearance. Talon may be a part of it but people don’t consider e first Talon the first full court right?

#10

Well if it has to be every member to be considered first court of owls than #4 don’t cut it either. That’s why I just bought the partial run it’s always been debated which is the go to book didn’t really matter much when they were $3.

#11

Can you explain your position? What makes it full?

It’s one panel. Historically that has been called a cameo.

#12

So, that means Captain America Comics #1 is the first appearance of the Avengers…???

#13

No had it said the Avengers are a team made up of superheroes with differing abilities that defend humanity from villains and live in Avengers tower while showing a coin with the Avengers logo on it in the first appearance of Captain America prior to seeing Captain America in the same book you could make a case for it then.

#14

I don’t think every member has to appear…especially since they are a crime syndicate…but it has to be more than one to be a “court” of “owls”…plural.

An is a Talon actually a court member…or just a pawn/soldier of the court, anyway?

Issue 3 does seem to be accepted as the actual first, though (one panel cameo?). Making issue 4 really just background story mostly.

#15

Interesting. I see your view. But I think that would be a first mention of Avengers…not a first appearance.

Much like mentioning of Black Winter in SS Black #4 isn’t a first appearance.

Now, if another of the original avengers was also in Captain America Comics #1 then it’s a better debate.

I still think a Talon is not a member of the court as well…but I’ve only basing that on the 2 books I have.

#16

I see it your way too one member is not the court but a mention and a part of the court is more than a mention. Always has held the books back having so many different mentions and cameos.