You know I rarely go to forums anymore but the Cates thing fascinates me because there is clearly a three eyed face in ss black! I have no dog in the hunt and this isn’t even something I am currently writing about or specing on! I like the forum format here, nice and clean.
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I appreciate the two of you being civil with your debate over this.
I’ve may have started this thread, ha, but I’ve really got no dog in the debate. I’ve got multiple copies of each book involved and I’ve never sold a comic anyways so I’m not pumping anything.
A simple explanation…
Klein based his art on that panel from Tradd as Black Winter is referenced there. The 3 eyed face matching is a big thing to be a coincidence. While Cates may not have scripted BW there, even though the text referenced BW, Tradd drew his interpretation there and Klein based his final version off it.
And business wise, I can see Donny wanting to push and promote his current Thor run and BW arc as the first instead of having focus pushed to a book he ended a year ago.
Just playing devils advocate. I’ve got no dog here.
This is a perfect debate for the True Firsts guy. Ha.
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Cates wrote the book, but Moore drew it. We are not talking about the words in the book (brought to you by Cates), we are talking about the pictures (brought to you by Moore). Now, Cates said he never discussed his BW plans w/ Moore, but he did not say that Moore did not talk to Thors artist (whoever that is currently). Just because Cates doesn’t think Moore knew about BW because,as Cates stated, Cates did not tell Moore, that does not mean that Moore did his own interpretation while drawing the book. Cates’ word really doesn’t hold water here, imo.
So it is, doesn’t mean the market and demand is going to go for it. Just like when Brubaker claims Winter Soldier’s first appearance was in Captain America #1, yet everyone buys #6.
Market and demand doesn’t decide what’s first. That’s the line of thinking you need to take out of the equation.
The creators claim Black Winter is not in SSB4 so be it, time to move on… the argument is moot.
Yes, I’m sure Moore called up Klein and was like… hey dude, remember SSB issue 4… you gotta draw in Black Winter in your upcoming Thor book… 
Actually it does, because it’s his story and his creation. Nuff said… again, the argument is moot until Cates says otherwise which I don’t think is going to happen. We have to take the creators word for it at this point whether we like it or not.
Cates did not create the art in the panels. Moore did. We are talking about the art in the panels, are we not? Cates had nothing to do with Moore’s creativity in his art, imo. Comics have more than one creator, typically. Let the debate ensue…
Roll your eyes all you want…it doesn’t make your assessment accurate.
Yes but he provided the script to inspire the art. So, Moore drew the emerging of Galactus and Donny said he didn’t explain anything about Black Winter or his future plans in Thor. So when the creator says, it’s not Black Winter, then that settles the debate, we have to take his word for it. Anyone who tries to go around the creator is just talking nonsense if you ask me.
I’m well aware there’s more than one creator in comics. I’m an idiot some days, not a complete idiot though…
And everything you’ve said is assumptions… I’m rolling my eyes cause you made a statement that likely only happened in your own mind.
But even if he (Cates) said Moore talked to Klein, ya’ll would just say he’s wrong anyways… cause his “word” really doesn’t hold any water more than likely… 
Cates can say he didn’t mention BW to Moore, but it’s literally right in the script he provided for the page. So the comment that Tradd knew nothing of BW is inaccurate as it’s right there referenced in the script on the page.
So Moore could’ve easily drawn his interpretation of BW there. And if you recall Cates first comment was it’s artist interpretation before he got irritated and lashed out.
Klein could’ve easily looked at Moore’s art in that panel for his interpretation in Thor. BW is literately referenced in that panel. I don’t buy it’s a complete coincidence that Klein’s 3 eyed black winter matches Tradds 3 eyed character in the panel that references BW.
While it likely it wasn’t Cates intention for BW to appear there, it looks plausible the other creator Moore drew BW into the panel.
Either way the market will decide what’s the book to get which is often first full and not first app/cameo.
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Yes, that is likely true. But without any other explanation of what Black Winter actually is, when Cates says it’s not Black Winter and he intended to only reference it and now used it later in Thor.
If we are to say Moore’s artwork is indeed Black Winter, then we might as well entertain the idea that he first appeared actually in Thor #169 (which we already jokingly brought up on the main site during the spoilers), during the first go round of Galactus origin story being told and similar artwork was being used to show the emergence of Galactus.
Thanks Topher and welcome. We have had the forum for about a year now and it is growing. I do see a face with three eyes as well. I think it is funny that Cates is so pissed off over it. No idea why, you do not like answering the same question over and over again, just stop answering the question. Anyway, Cates says it is not, I am going with him. Could it be, sure, is the market reacting as such, sure, I have one copy and not really looking to break up the run so no dog in the fight as well.
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Pfff…creators. What do they know?
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Yeah I know right… Ford didn’t invent the Model T… Looks more like a Model S to me… I don’t care what he says, that’s a Model S damnit… cause it looks like an S and not a T…
There is no such thing as Walmart, they are all really K-Mart
But don’t listen to the Walton family… they’ll tell you Wal-Mart actually does exist… They don’t know anything! Pffttt…
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I feel Cates is just mad that he couldn’t stir the waters more like he always does. Like it wasn’t on HIS terms, and the community found the similarities. I also don’t have a ton of SSB, but my one lonely copy. So if it continues to go up, then so be it. After this is all played out I’ll sell the entire run. But for now it’s just Cates being his usual dramatic self